Curse

Kalki · Aug 08, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I can't believe I couldn't find a single thread in these forums regarding the raising of the the level cap. I checked through the index of ideas thread (found here), and did a few searches too. Maybe a mod could add this thread to that list.

I never thought I'd say it, but this game needs it's level cap raised. I'm not a power gamer and many times I think power gamers are a little weird. I don't have the urge to "pwn nubs" with one hit kills on my level 99999 character. I like being on a level playing field with everyone else. But we do need power gamers in Guild Wars to fill our towns and teams especially as future expansions are released and the number of towns grows. I'd bet the level cap being only 20 is the number 1 reason most people give for not leaving other games to get into Guild Wars. Even most people that don't consider themselves power gamers will agree this level cap is too low.

In my experience the ideal number for a level cap should relate to the real-life maximum age of a human. I don't know if it's a subconscious thing, but there's just something very appealing about being in the 40-100 level range and feeling like you have wisdom and experience (I'm only 25 years old IRL by the way). Furthermore, I think 100 is the ideal level cap cause it's a nice round number, and the number gains a 3rd digit, an extra show of power.

When my friends sold me on Guild Wars last year I remember asking them why the level cap was so low, and they told me the level cap would be raised by 10 or 20 every expansion pack. I don't think that's something they read from any Anet source. It's just something that was expected. I think we shared this expection with many people and of course when expectations aren't met people are let down.

Why was it an expectation though? First, there's the historical reasons. Simply raising the level cap by a little bit as a common form of bait for customers to buy expansions is something almost every MMORPG does. Look at WoW, DAoC, EQ, etc.... In this regard I'm glad Guild Wars expansions continue to surprise us by not giving us these cheap tactics and mandatory grinds. I'm confident that my accomplishments in Prophecies and Factions will never be watered down or made pointless by future additions. Second, there's the natural expectation of a level cap to be approximate to the maximum age of a human as I explained before.

Of course there's other ways to advance a character other then just level as Anet has shown us with the Titles system. I'm very pleased with the introduction of titles especially the explorer and protector titles. I remember being called a "noob" many times for wanting to complete a bonus or explore an area of the map in Tyria, but now I have Protector and Explorer titles on both continents, and I have a way to show off my eliteness. Although I know way too many people that don't pursue any titles. Maybe it's because you can only display 1 at a time. Maybe it's because they are so hard to max out. Maybe it's because they don't increase your power for obtaining them. It could be those reasons, but I think it's because titles are too complicated and people prefer a simple number level system.

Regardless the reasons, the fact is that far too many people don't appreciate titles as they are now. I'll never be able to sell Guild Wars to some of my friends that play WoW with my elite Explorer title, or even if I had a rank 15 emote. That won't get their attention. Now if I said I were level 100 and showed them ultra-rare weapons and armor that would get their attention. Maybe if I told them I was only level 79 and the max is 100, but it's so hard to get no one has ever reached it yet. I guess any change is better then telling friends I'm level 20, everyone is level 20, and they can get to level 20 in 5 hours.

With that being said, what is the best way to raise the level cap? It could be done an infinite number of ways. Many important questions need to be asked when designing for a level increase. Should being higher then level 20 make that character more powerful then a level 20, more versatile, or only as a show of accomplishment? Should the level cap increase be very complicated and tied in with new game features such as Titles, or should it be strictly experience point based?

I have several different ideas on how to increase the level cap, but I'll just write 3 here. Without further ado are my ideas.

Title based level increase:
- For select titles you have you get 1 level while over level 20.
- For rank 3 Hero you get +1 level, for rank 6 Hero you get +1 level, etc...
- For rank 3 Gladiator you get +1 level, for rank 6 Gladiator you get +1 level, etc...
- A maxed Explorer title gets you +1 level.
- Each Protecter of ... title you obtain gets you +1 level.
- Each rank in the Skill Hunter title gets you +1 level.
- No level increase for drinking, gambling, or Survivor titles.
- No power increase not even a nominal one for being level 20+... it wouldn't be fair to people with no interest in PvP or some titles. The grind would feel painfully mandatory for many if a power increase were involved.

Experience/Skill based level increase:
- A more traditional approach to leveling. Would basically account for skill points and experience earned after level 20, and convert that to a level 20+ character.
- Would feel very natural to gain skills along with levels.
- The game would need a way for characters to change primary professions. It's useless to acquire all the necro skills on a warrior primary profession for example. Would need to expand storage drastically for a character to store multiple armor sets, weapons, etc...
- This system would allow a player to gain levels with greater flexibility then the title system. As long as a player is killing and gaining experience, they would be gaining levels.
- The system would mostly be to show a characters versatility through the availability of skills, but could also permit a small and infrequent increase in power without stepping on the toes of casual gamers too much.

Experience/Skill based level increase (chapter specific) :
- Similar to the change listed above, but with the changes solely inside a certain campaign or chapter.
- Every time a character enters a new campain his level is reset to 1 and/or he enters an alternate way of advancing his character, possibly levelling to greater then level 20 and even having different and greater powers. When he returns to Tyria or Cantha he level returns to 20.
- Maybe this certain campaign could be the "power gamers paradise" just like Factions is the "grind and PvP paradise" and Prophecies is the "explorers paradise". It could be a place where power gamers could truly feel like they're "pwning nubs".

It's hard to say which one of my ideas is my favorite. I truly like the Title system and would love to see levels based off that, but that still doesn't address the lack of appeal of this game to power gamers. Power gamers want an advantage not just recognition so I'm inclined to go with my second idea, and give them more recognition for versatility, and maybe even a small extra power boost over people with lower levels then them.

Edit: I would appreciate it if a mod would delete the flame posts in this thread. This isn't a petition or a whine thread, but a constructive suggestion. Please contribute something to the conversation, or don't post at all.

Arkantos · Aug 08, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Stop suggesting this, it's not happening.

PS: Its suggested almost everyday.

sykoone · Aug 08, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Raising the lvl cap is a daily suggestion, and it's not gonna happen. Since GW allows you to take new characters to old chapters, they would have to basically rebalance the entire game just to raise the cap. It's a waste of time, time that could be spent on them fixing the more serious errors around here (lag, reconnects, and so on). While there are several people that want it to go higher than 20, it's been said repeatedly by the devs that the lvl cap will not be raised.

actionjack · Aug 08, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I will get my Hotdog ready for the roast....

Funny you mention why the level cap increase does not appear in the idea index page... Anyhow, I will save the explaination of why the generall agreement of no level cap increase for the other.

You can think of your skill points as your level if you feel that need.

I personally like a system that was a suggestion by someone sometime ago by just taken out your level entirely when you reach lv 20. Replace it with a star or something. Of course, that might run in a bit of trouble when fighting lv 20+ mob, as some new people might not get it. So I guess that would a be one reason why A.net never done that.

NinjaKai · Aug 08, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Fact is their are more than a dozen MMOs that follow the "average" type of RPG gameplay with similar mechanics. Spending tireless hours leveling does not prove you have any skill. Attributes are much better than the normal agility, strength, speed, etc. All that common attribute s*** just gets boring. GW is about skill, raising the level cap would simply infuriate the main majority of the community who play GW since its different. If you want a higher level cap and everything else in a "traditional" MMO. Play something like final fantasy or ragnarok. Many people like GW because its unique, something that is seldom seen with other online RPGs.

gameshoes3003 · Aug 08, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I say no....
I like lvl 20

Roupe · Aug 08, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I find the levels in guild wars rather redundant. certain low level foes are a bothersome to fight & some high lvl foes 26 are easy & players are locked at lvl20 for majority of the game. People that arnt lvl20 rush there, and then take it easy to explore. If the lvls where visually removed, nothing would change much. In fact it may improved some behavior.

In cantha, the lvl progression is so rapid it takes away the fun from leveling. I kinda like leveling, but in Guild Wars its not leveling at all. So its diffrent & fun in another way

Kalki · Aug 08, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Wow a bit harsh on me don't you think? If you read what I posted you'll see that I'm in the same boat as all of you. I love Guild Wars for being unique. In fact, I'd love it if Guild Wars didn't even have a level system. That would be innovative. But we do have a level system and capping it at level 20 is a joke. If you read through my post you'd see that I think the level should reflect accomplishments we have after being level 20 without actually making us more powerful, or maybe throw power gamers a small bone to keep them interested.

Honestly, I'm a little bit dissappointed for being flamed. I wrote a little disclaimer not to flame me, but took it out, because I thought people would be smarter then that.

I have over 2,000 hours in Guild Wars on my account. I had over 2,000 hours in WoW before I quit. WoW was my first MMORPG. I played every Final Fantasy except 2, 3, 9, and 10-2 for countless hours, but probably won't play the new ones because many of the original creators have left. I also played Diablo 1 and 2, Chrono games, etc... I've probably played more games then all the people combined that just flamed me. Anyone going to read what I typed and respond?

NinjaKai · Aug 08, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

I wasn't trying to flame you. I simply mentioned those 2 games as an example of traditional MMOs. Sorry if it came of as being harsh. That wasn't my intention.

Rent · Aug 08, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

Anyone going to read what I typed and respond?

No, because it's dumb. Any suggestion to increase the level cap is dumb by default; sorry.

Also:

Quote:

I played every Final Fantasy except 2, 3, 9, and 10-2 for countless hours, but probably won't play the new ones because many of the original creators have left. I also played Diablo 1 and 2, Chrono games, etc... I've probably played more games then all the people combined that just flamed me.

looooooool

You played popular games good job.

johan the destroyer · Aug 08, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

I think leveling up based on accomplishments sounds like an interesting idea but, personally, I do not think it would work since it would reflect how much time someone spent getting these titles, etc (IE. how many Unids someone bought, how many chest runs they went on, etc), which doesn't seem to be the feel of Guild Wars. I like the current system which is sort of like raising the level cap. You have your level of 20, but then you have titles which you can level up and which can show up which sort of adds to your "level". Apart from that, you present interesting points, but nothing that can be feasibly intergrated into the game and still keep the overall feel. I did want to see another level cap myself in Factions, but then I saw it from the viewpoint that if you are level 20 in prophecies and you buy factions and go to level 30, then you have an advantage over everyone who doesn't have factions which can be unfair. For example, someone lvl 20 is running droks, then you, lvl 30 are running it too. You are obviously going to be faster and more efficient. So, A new level cap would be something to look forward to in other MMORPGs but it really doesn't fit in guild wars.

xBakox · Aug 08, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Wow a bit harsh on me don't you think? If you read what I posted you'll see that I'm in the same boat as all of you. I love Guild Wars for being unique. In fact, I'd love it if Guild Wars didn't even have a level system. That would be innovative. But we do have a level system and capping it at level 20 is a joke. If you read through my post you'd see that I think the level should reflect accomplishments we have after being level 20 without actually making us more powerful, or maybe throw power gamers a small bone to keep them interested.

Honestly, I'm a little bit dissappointed for being flamed. I wrote a little disclaimer not to flame me, but took it out, because I thought people would be smarter then that.

I have over 2,000 hours in Guild Wars on my account. I had over 2,000 hours in WoW before I quit. WoW was my first MMORPG. I played every Final Fantasy except 2, 3, 9, and 10-2 for countless hours, but probably won't play the new ones because many of the original creators have left. I also played Diablo 1 and 2, Chrono games, etc... I've probably played more games then all the people combined that just flamed me. Anyone going to read what I typed and respond?

GW is NOT a game that needs a higher level cap.

I read your post, and your not in the same boat as me if you think the cap needs to be raised. As discussed before (plenty of times, I cant believe you couldnt find another post

) it would screw up PvP and gaining a level for each "accomplishment" would completely mess up the idea of GW and why most people play it (the skill>time, which isnt exactly true, but there is no physical difference between what 2 character can or cant do other then knowledge and chapters or lack of).

Btw I dont care how many games you have played...its not happening.

EDIT: Made it a little less harsh.

Ken Dei · Aug 08, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

"Signet of Disapproval"

Opeth11 · Aug 08, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Well, I've just finished reading your post, and I understand which direction you are coming from. Sure, it makes perfect sense on why the cap should be raised and how it can make you look "superior" to others.

The problem is that this game is supposedly based on PvP. If you've payed attention to the update notes regarding the skill nerfs, more often than not, it's to balance out the PvP playing field.

What does PvP have to do with not raising the cap? Guild Wars happens to believe in equality among all the players, and having someone be 5 levels than you doesn't seem equal. Though in actual playing it will be perfectly even, the higher level status could create another Rank effect. Many players will agree with me when I say: there will be groups that only want level 90's and higher.

Though it makes sense that a team would want to consist of nothing but "experienced" players, this could really cause a problem when it comes to new players who want to get into PvP. Believe it or no, there are countless players who stray away from PvP just because they couldn't get into a competitive group that would allow a Rank 0 player.

If you have problems getting your friends into the game through explanation, then why not let them play with your character at your house and let them see how the game is by themselves? If the ability to become a high level character is so important to a person, then Guild Wars is not for them.

As for getting flamed right on the spot, it was probably because of your opening sentence: I can't believe I couldn't find a single thread in these forums regarding the raising of the the level cap. There have been many, many threads that address this situation, and I have argued in most of them. In fact, there are times where people take sides on the situation and feelings get hurt fast. The people who go for the level cap are rarely ever seen on this forum anymore. Why? maybe because they can't stand having to try and push a point that won't work out against a group of resilient bastards like me.

I am sure more of these threads will pop out in the future, but the same arguement will be proposed, and will render the topic useless once again.

Kalki · Aug 08, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Thanks Johan for the thoughful reply. Even though you disagree with me I appreciate you giving my ideas some consideration.

And for Bako... LOL so how did you read my post but you obviously need some reading comprehension. I'll spell it out for you.

I think a level increase past level 20 should show a characters versatility and accomplishments not raise the power and attributes of that character.

Why am I bothering responding to flamers though? From now on I'm just going to wait for more people like Johan with an open mind who consider what I've wrote and give thoughtful replies before I reply.

Kalki · Aug 08, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Ok ok if someone posts links to all these threads with discussion on raising the level cap I'll go away. I promise. I've done the searches though and it's a topic that hasn't been discussed in a long time.

Opeth11 · Aug 08, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Hold up, I'll try to find a few.

edit - Apparantly, this new searching system just doesn't work as well as the old one. I can't even use it to find posts of the person who I've argued with countless times.

This could get tough to find those threads -_-

Oh, and the topic was last discussed about two weeks ago. Literally.

some_dude_91 · Aug 08, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

i would like to raise the max level but im sure it's not happening for several reasons...

guildwars is a balanced game. if you have say a lvl 89 and lvl 85 fighting it wouldnt be fair. also take into consideration the +20hp and attribute points for each lvl. warriors with 80-100 armor on each piece with 3000hp would be unstoppable. and the attribute points would be wack. so until they find a way to balance it out more im sure it's not happening.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 08, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

As I level 20 character I go up against level 28 foes and kill them.

As a level 28 character I would go up against level 36 foes and kill them.

As a level 780964097283650927430965 character I would go up against 780964097283650927430973 foes and kill them.

Levels are totally and completely arbritrary. If the level cap was raised (not a chance) it would be rebalanced so that the highest level would be the standard level, just like level 20. Part of what makes this game so attractive is that there is still most of the game left when you are max level, meaning you can always go back and play old areas, and it's still fun. In something like EQ or WoW going back to the first few areas is boring as all heck.

For your needs of progression, titles, as you mentioned, should fill that need for you. You can also shoot for UAX, high guild rank, 15k/FoW armor, rare skins, international fame in HA, or building up a friendly guild. Or, god forbid, you could just play the farking game without having the need to show off to people that you're better than they are.

Finally, I have an awful lot of trouble believing you looked for more than 10 seconds and were unable to find one of the billion posts asking to raise the level cap.

Also, talking about raising the level cap in future expansions is a fatal flaw in your logic, they're not expansions, they're standalone chapters. You can buy just one and play just that. If they raised the level cap, everyone would have to buy it, or, more likely, no one would buy it and would just continue playing around in the previous chapters.

unholy guardian · Aug 08, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

for every level we go up the monsters would have to go up 5, it just wouldn't be worth the time invested. PVp wouldn't change except everything be crazy strong, and pve would be grind fest...